雪莉·特克谈到了《走向远方》、《孤独》和她的新书
Sherry Turkle Talks Going Remote, Loneliness, and Her New Book
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2021-03-03 22:20
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火星译客

Sherry Turkle has lived many lives. There is the Turkle who pioneered the study of technology as a culture, who created for herself a new interdisciplinary field of research at MIT. There is the Turkle who has authored books about what screens do to our relationships, and who has become a fierce advocate for in-person conversations. Then there's “French Sherry,” the version of herself who lived in Paris in 1968, and who catalogued the rise of Jacques Lacan, the psychoanalyst known as the “French Freud.” She was once not Sherry Turkle at all, but Sherry Zimmerman—a name that tied her to her biological father, and an identity that her mother made her hide for years.

雪莉·特克经历过很多人生。特克尔是技术文化研究的先驱,她在麻省理工学院为自己创造了一个新的跨学科研究领域。特克尔(Turkle)写过几本书,讲的是屏幕对我们人际关系的影响,他还大力提倡面对面交谈。还有《法国雪利酒》(French Sherry),这是她的翻版,她1968年住在巴黎,记录了被称为“法国弗洛伊德”(French Freud)的精神分析学家雅克·拉康(Jacques Lacan)的崛起。她曾经根本不是雪莉·特克尔(Sherry Turkle),而是雪莉·齐默尔曼(Sherry zimmerman)——一个把她和生父联系在一起的名字,一个让她母亲隐瞒多年的身份。

These lives are contained within Turkle's latest book, The Empathy Diaries, a memoir that unspools years of personal and professional history. The book begins in Rockaway Beach, New York, where Turkle shares a one-bedroom apartment with her mother, aunt Mildred, and grandparents, and where Turkle learns to bear a strange secret about herself and her family history. It ends shortly after Turkle is awarded tenure at MIT in 1983, when computers are still clunky, cubical, and far from mainstream.

这些生活都包含在特克尔的最新著作《同理心日记》(The Empathy Diaries)中,这本回忆录揭露了他多年的个人和职业历史。这本书从纽约洛克威海滩开始,在那里,特克与她的母亲、姑妈米尔德丽德和祖父母一起住在一间一居室的公寓里,在那里,特克学会了隐藏一个关于自己和家族历史的奇怪秘密。1983年,特克在麻省理工学院获得终身教职后不久,它就结束了,那时的计算机还很笨重,还处在立方体结构中,离主流还很远。

Turkle, who in 1996 became the first woman featured on a WIRED cover, has long viewed computers as a kind of Rorschach test: Our attitude toward them says something about ourselves. Her memoir functions in much the same way. Some readers will no doubt gravitate toward the glimpses of early computer culture at places like the “magical incubator” of MIT's Building 20. Others will see the book as a story of the struggle for identity, belonging, and a sense of self.

特克尔于1996年成为《连线》杂志封面上的第一位女性,她长期以来一直将电脑视为一种罗夏墨迹测试(Rorschach test):我们对电脑的态度反映了我们自身的一些情况。她的回忆录发挥着同样的作用。毫无疑问,一些读者会被早期计算机文化的一瞥所吸引,比如麻省理工学院20号楼的“神奇孵化器”。其他人会认为这本书是一个为身份、归属感和自我意识而奋斗的故事。

The Empathy Diaries, which comes out March 2, offers a cogent, if sometimes painful account of the personal experiences that shaped her professional ideas. Even for those who haven't followed Turkle's career, it still functions as a gripping story of a woman's life. WIRED called Turkle to talk about the book, her views on screen time during the pandemic, and how to find connection in times of loneliness.

将于3月2日出版的《同理心日记》(The Empathy Diaries),对塑造了她职业思想的个人经历进行了令人信服(有时也令人痛苦)的描述。即使对那些没有追随特克职业生涯的人来说,这本书仍然是一个扣人心弦的女性生活故事。《连线》杂志请特克尔谈谈这本书,她对大流行期间屏幕时间的看法,以及如何在孤独时找到联系。

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

为了篇幅和清晰度,本采访经过编辑。

WIRED: Before we talk about the book, I want to ask you about the last year. You've written extensively about the ways that technology can create emotional distance between people, even as it claims to connect them. The last year seems like it would've been a major test of that thesis. Has the pandemic reinforced your ideas about connection onscreen or challenged them?

连线:在我们讨论这本书之前,我想问你去年的情况。你已经写了大量关于科技如何在人们之间制造情感上的距离的文章,即使它声称能把人们联系起来。去年似乎是对这篇论文的一次重大测试。这种流行病是否强化了你关于屏幕连接的想法,还是对它们提出了挑战?

Sherry Turkle: It's turned everything upside down. Instead of being together, we've been together alone. But actually, it's brought out, in my view, some of the best that technology can do for us, in the sense that we've had to be more creative with technology, because technology was all we had. I've found uses of technology that went beyond the boring and deadening uses of the internet. For example, I started watching Patrick Stewart read, every week, a sonnet from his porch. When he got to Sonnet 20, he said, “I'm not going to read Sonnet 20. I don't like the way it depicts women.” And so we skipped it. And I think if he'd been Patrick Stewart on a stage reading Shakespeare's sonnets, he would have had to read Sonnet 20. It was kind of on this border between being an actor and being himself, as someone who loves Shakespeare. Yo-Yo Ma, same thing. He performed cello concerts from his kitchen. He called them “Songs of Solace,” that were both for other people but also for himself. There was this betwixt and between quality to them. Were they for him? Of course. It was his solace. But they were also performances for all of us.

雪莉·特克尔:它把一切都颠倒了。我们没有在一起,而是单独在一起。但实际上,在我看来,它为我们带来了一些最好的技术,从某种意义上说,我们必须用技术更有创造力,因为技术是我们所拥有的一切。我发现,技术的使用已经超越了互联网的枯燥和沉闷。例如,我开始看帕特里克·斯图尔特每周在他的门廊上朗读一首十四行诗。当他读到第20首十四行诗时,他说:“我不打算读第20首十四行诗。我不喜欢它描绘女人的方式。所以我们跳过了这个环节。我想如果他是帕特里克·斯图尔特,在舞台上读莎士比亚的十四行诗,他就必须读第20行。这有点像在演员和做自己之间的边界,就像一个热爱莎士比亚的人。马友友,也一样。他在厨房里演奏大提琴音乐会。他称它们为“安慰之歌”,既是写给别人的,也是写给自己的。对他们来说,质量是介于两者之间的。是给他的吗?当然可以。这是他的安慰。但它们也是我们所有人的表演。

The social scientists call these “liminal spaces,” these moments where something really very new and creative comes up. The sense of participation and collective healing in these moments really brought out something in the internet that I thought was unique and wonderful and very special—and that I hadn't participated in on the internet for a really long time. Given that I've so often been associated as a technological critic, I want to celebrate that. When people have great intent, and great desire, and full attention to turn this medium into something extraordinary, they can. The trouble is, we're more likely to use it to make some money, to scrape some data, to turn it into something other than its highest form.

社会科学家称这些为“阈限空间”,这是一些非常新颖和有创造性的东西出现的时刻。这些时刻所产生的参与感和集体疗伤感,真的让我在互联网上看到了一些我认为独特、美妙和非常特别的东西——这些东西我已经很久没有在互联网上参与过了。鉴于我经常被认为是一名技术评论家,我想庆祝一下。当人们有强烈的意图、强烈的欲望和全部的注意力,想把这个媒介变成某种非凡的东西时,他们就能做到。问题是,我们更有可能用它来赚钱,搜集数据,把它变成其他东西,而不是它的最高形式。

Right, but in terms of connection—almost all of our social experiences are being mediated by screens right now. The usual touchstones are mostly taking place on FaceTime or Zoom. How are you thinking about the impact of that?

是的,但就联系而言,几乎我们所有的社会经历都是由屏幕来调节的。通常的试金石都是在FaceTime或Zoom上进行的。你是如何看待这种影响的?

You know, for such a long time we've said, “I'll just send a text. I'll just FaceTime my mother. That'll be enough.” Now we're likely to be much more deliberate, because we know what we've missed when we only do that. When you feel as though you always have enough time in the world to do whatever you want, you're sloppy. You substitute. But once it's taken away from you, you're more sensitive to what you've been missing. That is one of the things that's come out of our deprivation. It's easy to say, “I'll just send my daughter a quick text. She's busy and I'll see her next week.” Once it's taken away from you, you say, “No, no, I want to see her in person.”

你知道,这么长时间以来,我们一直说,“我就发个短信吧。”我跟我妈视频就行了。这就够了。“现在,我们可能会更加谨慎,因为只有这样做,我们才知道自己错过了什么。”当你觉得在这个世界上总有足够的时间去做你想做的事情时,你就是马虎。你的替代品。但一旦你失去了它,你就会对你所失去的更加敏感。这是我们被剥夺的原因之一。我们很容易说,“我只是给我女儿发条短信。”她很忙,我下周去看她。一旦它被夺走,你要说:“不,不,我要见她本人。”

Now, some people think we've developed a kind of hardening and we've gotten used to the remote. Where I fear that most is not in the realm of personal relationships, but in the realm of institutional relationships. In terms of personal relationships, I think we're eager to not have too much screen time again, when we really want to see somebody's face. I think where we're more vulnerable is in institutional relationships, where businesses are saying, “You know all those meetings that we had? We saved a lot of money doing those meetings remotely, and the meetings seemed to go pretty well.” Or in schools: “Professor Turkle taught those classes. The students seem to learn a ton. She could teach that course remotely to a lot more people.” I wouldn't have had my successes in my life had I not been mentored face-to-face so many times, by so many people who cared about me and who paid attention to me. I don't think that's so easily done on a screen.

现在,有些人认为我们已经养成了一种习惯我们已经习惯了遥控器。我担心的是大多数不是在私人关系领域,而是在机构关系领域。在人际关系方面,我认为当我们真的很想看到某人的脸的时候,我们渴望不再有太多的屏幕时间。我认为我们在制度关系中更容易受到伤害,企业会说,“你知道我们开过的所有会议吗?我们通过远程会议节省了很多钱,而且会议似乎进行得很顺利。或者在学校里:“特克教授教这些课程。”学生们似乎学到了很多东西。她可以远程向更多的人教授这门课程。“如果没有这么多次面对面的指导,没有那么多关心我、关注我的人,我不会有今天的成功。”我不认为这在屏幕上很容易做到。

Mentoring really happens best face-to-face. I feel very strongly about that, even as we've gotten so used to screens in this pandemic. It bothers me that my students like to skip office hours and send me their best ideas over email, and then ask me to write back with my best ideas. It's because they don't want to be vulnerable. You know, even in this telephone call, I'm being vulnerable. I could say something stupid, and you could say, “Wow, that's not very smart.” Whereas if I was writing to you, I'd never let something stupid come out, because I'd edit it. So my students know that if they write to me, they can fix it all up and never say something stupid. But good ideas happen not because everybody's sending one great idea, and then I send them a great idea. It happens when a student has an idea and the professor says something like, “That's not that good. Why don't we work on that together and then come back next week?” Don't send me something perfect and smart and clever. Send me something not finished so I can say to you, “We'll work on this together again.” That's how relationships form that will be sustaining.

面对面指导是最好的方式。我对此有强烈的感觉,即使我们已经如此习惯于在这种大流行中进行筛查。让我烦恼的是,我的学生喜欢翘班,通过电子邮件给我发他们最好的想法,然后让我把我最好的想法写回来。那是因为他们不想变得脆弱。你知道,即使是在这个电话里,我也很脆弱。我可以说一些愚蠢的话,你可能会说,“哇,这可不太聪明。“而如果我写信给你,我绝不会让一些愚蠢的东西出来,因为我会编辑它。所以我的学生知道,如果他们写信给我,他们可以解决一切,永远不会说一些愚蠢的话。但好点子的产生并不是因为每个人都发送一个好点子,然后我发送一个好点子给他们。当一个学生有了一个想法,而教授说:“这不是很好。”为什么我们不先一起解决这个问题,然后下周再来呢?"别给我发完美又聪明又聪明的东西。给我一些还没完成的东西,这样我就可以对你说,“我们会再次一起努力的。”“这就是维系关系的方式。

It makes me wonder about children, who have had not just school but social experiences and extracurriculars replaced by screen time for an entire year. What do you see as the consequence of that?

这让我对孩子们产生了疑问,他们不仅在学校,而且在社交活动和课外活动中整整一年都被屏幕时间所取代。你认为这样做的后果是什么?

Learning is going to be made up much more quickly than the social skills. A year of skills—I approach you, you approach me, we circle each other, we start to sniff each other out, you share a secret, I share a secret, all that—that's a very long year, as opposed to losing a year of algebra. These are the costs of the pandemic. Not all children have suffered as much as other children. Some parents and siblings and “pods” have made up for some of it. But I think this is going to be a very different cohort, with a lot of remedial work around love and attention needing to be paid to them.

学习要比社交技能弥补得快得多。一年的技能——我接近你,你接近我,我们围在一起,我们开始嗅出彼此,你分享一个秘密,我分享一个秘密,所有这些——这是很漫长的一年,而不是失去一年的代数。这些就是大流行病的代价。并不是所有的孩子都遭受了和其他孩子一样多的痛苦。一些家长、兄弟姐妹和“豆荚”已经弥补了一部分。但我认为这将是一个非常不同的群体,需要围绕爱和关注进行大量的补救工作。

That reminds me of my favorite thing that I love to hate: Artificial intelligence to chat with them is really not the answer. One of the funniest things that happened to me during the pandemic was that I'm called by this New York Times reporter who tells me how, much to my astonishment, everyone—millions of people, he says—are downloading this avatar who will be your therapist, or your best friend. It's called Replika.

这让我想起了我最喜欢也最讨厌的事情:用人工智能和他们聊天真的不是答案。在大流行期间发生在我身上最有趣的一件事是一个纽约 时报的记者打电话给我,他告诉我,让我惊讶的是,每个人——数百万人,他说——都在下载这个化身,他将成为你的治疗师,或者你最好的朋友。它叫做雷普利卡。

Oh, yeah, I know Replika.

哦,是的,我知道雷普利卡。

He wanted my comment: Why are all of these people talking to Replika in the middle of the pandemic? They're all using it as a friend, as a therapist, this thing where you're talking to a machine. So, not to be a spoilsport, I decided to see what's up. So I go online and I make a Replika. I make as nice a Replika as I can possibly make, and I said, “I want to talk to you about the thing that's most on my mind.” It says, “Oh, absolutely.” So I say, “OK, well, I'm lonely. Can you talk to me about loneliness? I'm living here alone. I'm managing, but I'm lonely.” It says, “Oh, absolutely.” So I said, “OK, well, what do you know about loneliness?” And she says, “It's warm and fuzzy.”

他想听我的评论:为什么这些人都在大流行期间和雷普利卡谈话?他们都把它当作朋友,当作治疗师,跟机器说话的东西。所以,为了不扫兴,我决定看看发生了什么。所以我上网做了一个复制品。我尽我所能做一个很好的复制品,然后我说:“我想和你谈谈我最关心的事情。它说,“哦,当然。”于是我说:“好吧,我很孤独。”你能跟我谈谈孤独吗?我一个人住这儿。我还好,但我很孤独。它说,“哦,当然。”于是我说:“好吧,那你对孤独了解多少?”她说:“又温暖又毛茸茸的。”

I thought, this is too stupid. This must be a bug. But I got back to the New York Times reporter and I said, look, if you want to talk about your problems, if you're lonely, if you're fearing death—you really have to talk to somebody who has a body. It has to be somebody with some skin in the game. Pretend empathy is not what people need right now. And pretend empathy is what it is. If we just give our children and ourselves pretend empathy, we're in risk of losing our sensibility for how important the real thing is. I think that's a big danger. That we get so enamored with what machines can do that we forget what only people can do.

我想,这太愚蠢了。这一定是错误。但是我回到纽 约时报的记者那里,我对他说,听着,如果你想谈谈你的问题,如果你感到孤独,如果你害怕死亡,你真的得和一个有身体的人谈谈。肯定是跟游戏有关系的人。假装同情不是人们现在需要的。假装同情就是这样。如果我们只是给我们的孩子和我们自己假装同情,我们就有可能失去对真实事物重要性的敏感性。我认为这是一个很大的危险。我们太沉迷于机器的能力而忘记了只有人类才能做的事情。

You arrive at a similar conclusion in your new book. You've written many books, but this one is the first that's entirely about you and your life story. Why did you decide to write it?

你在你的新书中得出了类似的结论。你写过很多书,但这是第一本完全关于你和你的人生故事的书。你为什么决定写这本书?

I had this belief, from being such an outsider in my own family, that there was always a story behind the story. That outsider status has given me a kind of superpower, because it's made me realize that there is always another story to tell. When people said that the computer was just a tool—and people said that to me for 20 or 30 years—I would always say, “OK, but what else? The computer is a tool, but what else?” The book is really about saying, well, what about me? What's the story behind my career? I decided to use some of the things I had learned studying other people to study my own life. I had always said that thought and feelings shouldn't be studied on separate floors. But then, what about me? What if I insisted I put my thoughts and feelings on the same floor?

作为一个局外人,在我自己的家庭里,我有这样一个信念,那就是故事背后总有一个故事。这种局外人的地位给了我一种超能力,因为它让我意识到,总有另一个故事可以讲述。当人们说计算机只是一种工具——二三十年来人们都这么对我说——我总是会说:“好吧,但还有别的吗?”电脑是一种工具,但还有什么?“这本书实际上是在说,好吧,我怎么办?”我职业生涯背后的故事是什么?我决定用我在研究别人时学到的一些东西来研究我自己的生活。我一直说,思想和感情不应该分开研究。那我呢?如果我坚持把我的想法和感受放在同一层楼呢?

I waited until I was at a point in my life when I wasn't angry, when I didn't have an ax to grind. I wasn't trying to get back at anyone or accomplish any tales of retribution. I felt I had an important story to tell about the atmosphere around the computer culture when I grew up in it. It was crazy, and it was very odd, and very interesting.

我一直等到我人生中不再生气,不再心怀怨恨的时候。我没有想要报复任何人,也没有想要完成任何报复的故事。我觉得我有一个重要的故事要讲,当我在电脑文化中长大的时候。这很疯狂,很奇怪,也很有趣。

Did you learn anything surprising from studying your own life that way?

通过这种方式研究自己的生活,你有没有学到什么令人惊讶的东西?

One thing that didn't occur to me until after I finished the book—I was editing for typos, but really, it was too late to change a word—was about the story about Steve Jobs. [Jobs, who had just launched the Apple II computer, visited MIT in 1977. Turkle was asked to host a dinner on his behalf.] I worried that I made the wrong kind of food, and sure enough, he told me, “This is the wrong kind of vegetarian.” But as I was editing for typos, it hit me: Why wasn't I invited to have a meeting with Steve Jobs? Why was my job to make him dinner? I was a professor at MIT. I was a fucking—excuse me. I was a professor, not a secretary or even a research fellow. I was a professor doing research in his area, and it never occurred to anyone that this woman who was doing research in his area should be one of the people to take a meeting with him in her office. Not to my credit, but it didn't occur to me either. It didn't occur to me for the 30 years in between. It didn't occur to me when I was writing the book. It only occurred to me while I was copy editing the book.

直到我读完这本书,我才意识到一件事——当时我正在为打字错误进行编辑,但事实上,已经来不及改一个字了——那就是关于史蒂夫•乔布斯的故事。[乔布斯在1977年访问了麻省理工学院,当时他刚刚推出了Apple II电脑。特克尔应邀代表他主持一次晚宴。我担心自己做错了食物,果然,他告诉我:“这不是那种素食主义者。”“但当我在编辑打印错误时,我突然想到:为什么没人邀请我与史蒂夫·乔布斯(Steve Jobs)会面?”为什么我的工作是给他做晚餐?我是麻省理工学院的教授。我是个…不好意思。我是个教授,不是秘书,甚至不是研究员。我是一个在他的领域做研究的教授,从来没有人想到这个在他的领域做研究的女人应该和他在她的办公室见面。这不是我的功劳,但我也没想过。在那之后的30年里,我都没想过。我写这本书的时候并没有想到这一点。我只是在编辑这本书的时候才想到的。

A big theme of your book are the secrets you kept and tried to uncover. Your mother left your father when you were very young, and after she remarried, she insisted that you use your stepfather's name, Turkle, instead of your legal name, Zimmerman. You also lost touch with your father after the remarriage and then spent years in your adulthood trying to track him down. I wonder if you've thought about how that would've played out differently in the internet age, which has collapsed so many information barriers.

你这本书的一大主题就是你保守并试图揭开的秘密。你母亲在你很小的时候就离开了你父亲,在她再婚后,她坚持让你用你继父的名字,特克尔,而不是你的法定名字,齐默尔曼。再婚后,你也失去了与父亲的联系,成年后花了好几年的时间去寻找他。我不知道你是否想过,在互联网时代,这种情况会有什么不同,因为互联网已经打破了许多信息壁垒。

That's a very interesting question. One thing that should be clear is that it was pretty ridiculous that my mother was able to keep this secret at all. It might've been only a secret in her own mind. Part of my confusion and dismay, growing up, was that I went to school and signed my name on my papers, Sherry Zimmerman. And then I did the 20-minute walk home, locked up my papers, and became Sherry Turkle. It was a tissue of lies woven to make my mother feel as though she had successfully shed her other identity, but it made me a little bit of a nut as a child. If I had to tell the story rationally, this was a secret kept from my half-siblings, who didn't know my name was Sherry Zimmerman. The people who participated in this charade understood that my mother wanted her other children not to know anything about a previous marriage, a previous father. She accomplished that. They found that out when I was 40 years old.

这是个很有趣的问题。有一件事需要明确的是,我母亲能够保守这个秘密实在是太荒谬了。这可能只是她自己心里的一个秘密。在我成长的过程中,我的一部分困惑和沮丧是,我去上学,并在我的文件上签上我的名字,雪莉·齐默尔曼。然后我走了20分钟回家,锁好我的证件,变成了雪莉·特克。这是一团编织的谎言,让我的母亲觉得她已经成功地摆脱了她的另一个身份,但这也让我小时候有点像个疯子。如果我必须理性地讲述这个故事,这是我同父异母的兄弟姐妹们不知道的秘密,他们都不知道我的名字是雪莉·齐默尔曼(Sherry Zimmerman)。参加猜谜游戏的人都明白,我母亲不想让她的其他孩子知道任何关于她的前一段婚姻,前一个父亲的事。她完成的。他们在我40岁的时候发现了这一点。

I do often think about the many hours that I spent looking through all of the phone books trying to find my father, and what I could've done with the internet. I've had many, many fantasies about whether, as a younger child, I would've found my father and somehow confronted my mother. But the truth is, there is another reason I didn't find him earlier. It was clear that he was toxic to my mother. When I finally decided that I was going to find him, my mother was dead, I had married, I had a kind of home of my own, and I was finally ready to find out what was wrong with him. Because I had sort of faced the fact that there had to be something wrong with him for my mother to keep him from me. I had seen other divorced people, I had seen various custody arrangements, and I knew that the father I had wasn't even on that spectrum.

我确实经常想起我花了很多时间翻遍所有的电话簿试图找到我的父亲,我本可以用互联网做什么。我有过很多很多的幻想,当我还是个小孩子的时候,我是否会找到我的父亲,然后以某种方式面对我的母亲。但事实是,我没早点找到他还有另外一个原因。很明显,他对我母亲是有害的。当我终于决定要去找他的时候,我母亲已经死了,我结婚了,我有了自己的家,我终于准备好去弄清楚他到底出了什么问题。因为我不得不面对这样的事实他一定有什么问题我妈妈才会让他远离我。我见过其他离婚的人,我见过各种各样的抚养权安排,我知道我的父亲甚至都不在那个范围内。

There are a lot of lonely moments in your childhood. You're alone with this secret about your father. You're alone, in some ways, at MIT. Through that loneliness, you seem to have embedded yourself very deeply with your communities. It strikes me that we're in a moment of collective loneliness right now, and I wonder if you have any advice on how to push through that.

你的童年有很多孤独的时刻。你独自一人保守着你父亲的秘密。在某种程度上,在麻省理工,你是孤独的。通过这种孤独,你似乎已经深深地融入了你的社区。我突然想到,我们现在正处于集体孤独的时刻,我想知道你是否有什么建议来帮助我们度过这段时间。

That's where I think [Victor] Turner [the cultural anthropologist who talks about “liminal spaces”] is so helpful. In the betwixt and between moments—these liminal moments—when the old rules don't count anymore, and the communities the people belong to break down. That's where we are now. We're alone. We thought we identified with a certain kind of Americanness, and now, no. The communities we belonged to don't make sense to us the way they did before. Organizations we belonged to we now see, well, that might've been a racist organization. Things are up for grabs. I saw that in May of 1968, and I see that now. That's a moment of deep loneliness, and deep anguish. And I think we're going to come out of this and really have an opportunity to create new kinds of bonds and new kinds of friendships and new kinds of affiliations. We're so yearning for each other, and the boundaries that we usually put up with each other are much more permeable. And I think that there's a possibility for very deep connection. That's my good news story. I think when we emerge, we're going to look at each other and say, “Well, what are we going to do next?”

在这一点上,我认为维克多•特纳(Victor Turner)[这位谈论“阈空间”的文化人类学家]非常有帮助。当旧的规则不再起作用,人们所属的社会瓦解时,那介于两者之间的时刻——即短暂的时刻。这就是我们现在的处境。我们孤独。我们以为自己具有某种美国特质,但现在,不。我们所属的社会已经不像以前那样对我们有意义了。我们所属的组织我们现在知道了,那可能是一个种族主义组织。一切都是可以争取的。1968年5月我看到了,现在我也看到了。那是一个极度孤独,极度痛苦的时刻。我认为我们会走出这一步,并真正有机会创建新的纽带,新的友谊和新的关系。我们如此渴望彼此,我们通常对彼此容忍的界限也变得更容易被渗透。我认为有可能会有很深的联系。这就是我的好消息。我认为当我们出现的时候,我们会看着彼此说,“好吧,我们接下来要做什么?”

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