Zheng Yuanjie:"Zombie Best-Seller of Children's Book" Impeding the Appearing of Young Writers of Children's Books
郑渊洁:“僵尸畅销童书”阻碍年轻童书作家出现
4152字
2019-12-10 15:51
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火星译客

(本文首发于2019年9月5日《南方周末》)

(This article was first published on Southern Weekend, September 5, 2019.)

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据相关统计,2018年少儿图书码洋规模达235亿元左右,占比26.2%左右,同比增幅超过中国图书市场整体增速。2019年上半年,少儿类图书码洋占比27.38%,比重持续上升。 (视觉中国/图)

According to relevant statistics, In 2018, the fixed price of children's books reached about 23.5 billion yuan, accounting for 26.2% of the total, and the year-on-year growth rate exceeded the overall growth rate of China's book market. In the first half of 2019, the fixed price of children's books accounted for 27.38 percent of the total, with the proportion rising steadily. (A Vision China Photo)

“在正常的情况下,市场会有一只无形的手推动很多年轻人为孩子写作,那为什么我们这些六十多岁的人的作品还在这里、赖着不走呢?”

"Under normal circumstances, the market has an invisible hand that pushes a lot of young people to write for kids, then why do the works of sixty-year-olds like us still stick around here?"

“一本好的童书肯定有一个能吸引孩子的故事。如果只是想告诉他们什么道理,他们会排斥的。”

"An excellent book for children must has a story that appeals to children. If you just want to tell them some dogmas, they will reject it."

郑渊洁64岁了,眉毛开始变白,体重从100公斤瘦到了80公斤左右,血压从180降到了115。“这是宇航员的血压”郑渊洁得意地告诉南方周末记者。“我把这些经验写进书里告诉孩子们,什么是大脑的敌人,什么是大脑的朋友。”

Zheng Yuanjie is 64 years old now, with eyebrows beginning turn to white. His weight dropped from 100 kg to about 80 kg, and his blood pressure dropped from 180 to 115. "This is the blood pressure of astronaut's," Zheng Yuanjie proudly told to the reporter of Southern Weekend. "I have put these experience into my books to tell kids what are the enemies of our brain and what are friends."

身为宇航员营养师的发小曾对郑渊洁说,白水煮鸡蛋是最有营养的食物。他在自己的身上做了实验,感觉符合预期,还把这些写入童书中,“家长们告诉我,孩子们看到后开始吃白水煮鸡蛋了。”

His childhood friend as an astronaut nutritionist had told Zheng that boiled egg is the most nutritious food. He did the experiment on himself and found it to be consistent with expectation, so he included it in his books for children. "Parents told me that their children started  to eat boiled eggs since reading my books."

郑渊洁的读者群横跨70后到10后,而他一个人写作34年之久的月刊《童话大王》的销量目前已超两亿册,皮皮鲁和鲁西西、舒克和贝塔的故事如今已经开始影响“第五代”小读者们。

Zheng Yuanjie's readers span from the generation of 1970s to the 2010s, and the monthly King of Fairy Tales, which was contributed by him alone for 34 years, has sold more than 200 million copies. Now, the stories of Pipilu, Luxixi, Shuke and Beita start to influence the fifth generation of young readers. 

郑渊洁身上发生的故事与他的童话一样流传甚广:小学四年级辍学,被老师罚说一百遍“我是全班最没出息的人”;一人支撑起一本月刊,1980年代中期就月入过万,拥有了北京第100张牌照的私家小轿车;他的儿子郑亚旗和他一样早早辍学,他亲自编写了四百多万字的教材,儿子用三年的时间学完了六年的课程……

Zheng Yuanjie's own stories are as popular as his fairy tales: he dropped out of primary school in grade 4, for his teacher punished him by  saying "I am the most worthless person in the class" for 100 times; He have supported a monthly by himself alone, and had reached a monthly income over 10,000 in the mid-1980s and possessed a private car with Beijing's 100th license plate; His son, Zheng Yaqi, dropped out of primary school as early as he had did, then he wrote a series of textbooks with more than four million words by himself to teach Zheng Yaqi at home, and his son completed the six-year-term course in three years...

三十多年来,郑渊洁每晚八点上床睡觉,凌晨四点半准时起床写作。“这个时间段没有采访,也没有其他的活动,可以保证我正常地创作。”

For more than 30 years, Zheng Yuanjie has gone to bed at 8 p.m. and got up at 4:30 a.m. to write. "There are no interviews and no other activities during this period, so it can ensure my regular writing."

1990年代末开始,郑渊洁决定为自己第一批已经读大学的读者创作长篇小说,出版到第七本时,因为成人向内容受到媒体批评,不得不终止连载。2010年,他在博客上撰文称,《仇象》等13部未发表的长篇小说只能在自己离世100年后出版。

In the late 1990s, Zheng Yuanjie started to write novels for his first group of readers who had stepped into colleges. By the time his seventh novel was published,

the serializing had to be terminated because its a/dult content was criticized by the media. In 2010, he wrote a blog to claim that his 13 unpublished novels, including The Elephant of Hatred, could only be published in the era 100 years after his death.

如今,已经完成但尚未出版的图书数量仍在增加。“我每天都在写作,大量的新作没有拿出来,不拿出来的原因是遭遇了不堪其扰的全方位的侵权。有什么方法能让这些人不盯着我呢?有一个方法就是我写出来的东西不发表了。现在,我每天绝大部分的精力都放在保护知识产权上,这也是生活。”

Today, his completed and unpublished works still keep increasing. "I am writing every day, and a large number of new works have not been brought out for the reason that my works have been fed up with all kinds of infringement. Is there any way to get these people to stop staring at me? One way is to stop publishing what I write. Now, I focus most of my daily time on protecting my intellectual property, which is also life."

因为作品中的角色被恶意抢注商标,郑渊洁曾四处维/权却接连碰壁。2017年,作为国家反盗版大使的郑渊洁应邀在国务院举办的高峰知识产权论坛发表演讲《原创七宗罪》,讲到商标和商号:“商标网上永远没有信息,街上开了一家皮皮鲁的店我才知道,为什么打不开呢?这是主管网络的人和代理公司的人勾结,只有代理公司能登录。”

Because the roles in his works are maliciously registered as trademarks by others, Zheng Yuanjie has tried every ways to safeguard his rights but usually encounter a brick wall. In 2017, Zheng Yuanjie, as the national anti-piracy ambassador, was invited to deliver a speech entitled "Seven Deadly Sins toward Originality" at the summit intellectual property forum held by the state council. When talking about trademarks and trade names, he said: "There is never relevant information on the official website of trademarks. I didn't know anything untill a new shop with a Pipilu trade mark or trade name appears in the street. Why did I always failed to open the webpage? It's because the stuffs in charge of the network collude with the staffs at the agency companies so that can only the agency companies log in the website."

他甚至对在座的领导直言不讳:“你们有谁能五分钟打开中国商标网登陆成功?不可能的。”领导们听完十分震惊,几天后,国家商标局邀请他座谈,听取他对知名文学角色商标维/权的意见和建议。

He even spoke bluntly to the leaders present: "can anyone of you open the China official website of trademark in five minutes and  successfully log in? Impossible." The leaders were shocked to hear this, and a few days later, the state trademark office invited him to a conversazione to hear his opinions and suggestions on trademark rights protection of famous literary characters.

2019年4月,郑渊洁退出童书作家榜,之后,被微博网友调侃未入榜。4月19日,郑渊洁发微博称,在得知童书作家销售排行榜从中国作家榜主榜单中剥离后,自己主动拒绝上榜,并痛批“童书进校园兜售”,直指“国际安徒生奖”得主、位居榜单第三的曹文轩。

In April 2019, Zheng Yuanjie withdrew from the annual best-seller list of children's book authors, after which he was mocked by weibo users for not being listed. On April 19, zheng Yuanjie posted a weibo massage to claim that he refused to be listed on his own initiative after learning that the list of children's book authors had been stripped from the main list of all Chinese writers this year. He also criticized Cao Wenxuan, the winner of the Hans Christian Andersen prize and the third author on the list, for "selling children's books on campus".

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河南郑州一餐厅注册使用了皮皮鲁餐饮类商标,郑渊洁为此维/权十四年。2018年,国家商标评审委员会宣布该餐厅商标无效。 (视觉中国/图)

A restaurant registered to use the Pipilu catering trademark in Zhengzhou, Henan province, and Zheng Yuanjie righted the protection for 14 years. In 2018, the national trademark review and adjudication board declared the restaurant's trademark invalid.(Photo by Visual China)

“怎么没有被年轻人取代了呢”

"How come they haven't been replaced by young people?"

南方周末:现在童书市场的繁荣看起来仍是过去留下的作品起主导作用,你认为市场上崛起了新的优秀的原创儿童文学作品吗?

Southern Weekend: the boom in the children's book market still seems to be dominated by works left over from the past. Do you think there are new excellent original children's literature emerging in the market?

郑渊洁:我的感觉是几乎没有,用一个词形容就是“断层”。现在去书店看,包括网上书店和传统的实体书店,几乎就是那么几个人,都是六十岁左右的人的作品。我是21岁写作的,30岁的时候写童话就算是小有名气了吧。现在你到书店去看,二十多岁的青年作家写儿童文学的几乎没有。

Zheng Yuanjie: my feeling is that there is almost none, with a word to describe is "fault".Now go to the bookstore, including the online bookstore and the traditional physical bookstore, almost a few people, are about sixty years old.I'm 21 years old. I'm 30 years old and I'm writing fairy tales.If you go to a bookstore now, there are few young writers in their twenties who write children's literature.

实际上,随着电子出版物的问世,传统图书的销量在大幅度下降,唯有童书的销量不降反而是增加的,这里透露出一个信息,那就是写童书还是能赚钱的。在正常的情况下,市场会有一只无形的手推动很多年轻人为孩子写作,全人类的历史上没有任何一个国家和民族,是一代不如一代的,那为什么我们这些六十多岁的人的作品还在这里、赖着不走呢?怎么没有被年轻人取代了呢?

In fact, with the advent of electronic publications, the sales of traditional books have fallen sharply, while the sales of children's books have increased rather than decreased. The message here is that there is still money to be made from writing children's books.Under normal circumstances, the market has an invisible hand to push many young people to write for children. In the history of all mankind, there is no country or nation that has been worse from generation to generation.Why haven't they been replaced by young people?

我觉得一个很重要的原因是与出版社有关。童书市场应该是在20年前出现了一个销售方法,就是进学校销售。如果学校能包销掉两万本书,出版社就能把这个作家给你请来。自从发明了这个模式之后,一些童书的销量就出现了泡沫式上升,我起了一个名字叫“僵尸畅销童书”,孩子是不喜欢看的。如果周日晚上到达,从周一到周五,差不多卖十万本书。十万本书是什么概念,中国大陆的图书每年出很多种,90%的书的印册是过不了一千的,而一周就卖出十万册,一个月去两次就是二十万册。分工很详细,比如出版社承担路费,书店承担住宿费和餐费,作家拿版税,学校有时也会拿回扣。

think one of the important reasons has to do with publishing houses.The children's book market probably started 20 years ago and one way to sell it was to go into schools. If the school can underwrite twenty thousand books, the publisher can get you the writer.Since the invention of this model, the sales of some children's books have gone up in a bubble. I have come up with a name "zombie bestseller", which children do not like to read. If it arrives on Sunday night, it will sell about 100000 books from Monday to Friday. What's the concept of 100000 books? There are many kinds of books in mainland China every year. 90% of the printed books are less than 1000, while 100000 are sold in a week, and 200000 are sold twice a month. The division of labor is very detailed, for example, the publishing house pays for the travel, the bookstore pays for the accommodation and meals, the writer gets royalties, and the school sometimes gets rebates.

这些学校只认名家,你让某些作家来,一听很有名,得过什么国际大奖,愿意包销书,但是如果是出版社推荐名不见经传的青年作家,学校就会谢绝。这样的结果是,年轻作家出不了书,即使能够出来,出版社也无法运作到学校去。所以,我觉得我们青年儿童文学作家断层和进校卖书关系非常大。我出国的时候见了一些国外的儿童作家,他们对这个销售方式闻所未闻,他们说童书作家应该进学校和孩子交流阅读和写作,但是绝不能去学校卖书。

These schools recognize only famous writers, and if you send a writer who is famous, who has won some international prize, and who is willing to underwrite the book, but if the publisher recommends an unknown young writer, the school will refuse them.  As a result, young writers do not produce books, and if they do, publishing houses do not operate in schools. Therefore, I think our young children's literature writers have a great relationship with entering school and selling books. I met some foreign children's writers when I was abroad, and they had never heard of this, and they said that children's writers should go to school and talk to children about reading and writing, but they should never go to school and sell books.

现在,你到新华书店去,书柜上摆的郑渊洁的、曹某某的、杨某某的,这些都是六十几岁的人,这些看上去其实一点也高兴不起来。

Now, you go to Xinhua Bookstore, the bookcase of Zheng Yuanjie's, Cao xx's, Yang xx's books, which authors are more than sixty years old people, this situation is not happy at all.

南方周末:市场或许也在寻找下一个童话大王,并好奇他将引导怎样的童话写作风向?

Southern Weekend: the market may also be looking for the next king of fairy tales and wondering what kind of direction he will guide in fairy tale writing.

郑渊洁:我就这样说吧,如果教育部把这个进校卖书真正有效地叫停了,不出三年,很多儿童青年文学作家会出现。这件事有很多弊病,除了让孩子对第一本书失去兴趣以外,还扼杀了年轻作家的出现,腐蚀了教师队伍,还把童书市场健康发展的路径给堵死了。如果停止的话,很多优秀的青年作家出现,那时候拼的就是质量了,但现在拼的是名气。

Zheng Yuanjie: Let me put it this way. If the ministry of education effectively stops selling books in schools, within three years, many children and young literature writers will appear.There are many drawbacks to this, not least the loss of interest in the first book, the strangling of young writers, the erosion of teachers, and the strangling of a healthy market for children's books.If this thing could been stopped, many of the excellent young writers would have come up with books of quality, but now with fame.

“应该把孩子的选择权交给孩子自己”

"Children should have their own choice."

南方周末:距离上次关于进校卖童书的争论已经过去数月,现在你怎么看这件事?

Southern Weekend: It's been months since the last debate about selling children's books in schools. What do you think about it now?

郑渊洁:没改观,好像还变化了。有个叫洪峰的著名作家,说他的女儿被老师强迫要求买某童书作家的书,但是该作家并没来这个学校。我觉得孩子阅读的时候,还是应该把孩子的选择权交给孩子自己。

Zheng Yuanjie: No, it seems to have changed.A famous writer named Hong Feng said that his daughter had been forced by her teacher to buy a book by a children's book author, but the author had not come to the school. I think it's important to leave children's choices to themselves while they read.

相比较于各种排行榜,税单是最准确的,到现在为止,他还是拿不出来。排行榜公布出来后,你没有辟谣,愿意用这个数字推动今后的图书销售,这也是有泡沫的。

Compared with the various rankings, the tax bill is the most accurate, and he still can not come out so far. After the list was published, you didn't refute the rumor and were willing to use this figure to promote future book sales, which is also a bubble

我觉得教育部门应该有作为,它其实是可以做好这件事的,但是目前还没有做到。这次采访的时间节点也很有意思,正值学生开学的日子,头两个月是进校卖书的高峰期,考试的时候就不让去了。正常情况下,他们现在已经开始了,各个少儿读物的出版社已经开始“忙”了。

I think the education department should do something, it can do it, but it hasn't done it yet.The timing of this interview is also very interesting. It is the beginning of the school year for students. The first two months are the peak period for entering the school and selling books.Normally, they would have started now, and publishers of children's books would have been "busy".

南方周末:孩子自己选择和专家学者推荐,哪一个更有利于他们文学素养的提高?

Southern Weekend: Which is more conducive to the improvement of children's literary literacy, the choice by themselves or the recommendation by experts and scholars?

郑渊洁:我觉得家长首先应该把关。家长小时候看到的有意思的书可以推荐给自己的孩子,这样是比较保险的。老师和专家推荐的书当然也可以去看,但是我觉得这个标准还是取决于孩子是否喜欢。一本好的童书肯定有一个能吸引孩子的故事。如果只是想告诉他们什么道理,他们会排斥的。

Zheng Yuanjie: I think parents should check the gate first. Interesting books that parents read when they were young can be recommended to their children, which is safer.Books recommended by teachers and experts can also be read, but I think the standard still depends on whether the child likes it or not.A good children's book must have a story that appeals to children. If you just want to tell them something, they will reject it.

现在这种声光电的时代,孩子爱上文字,第一本书最重要。第一本书吸引到他,他才会去阅读第二本,即使第二本不喜欢,他也会觉得吸引他的书是存在的。如果第一本是没有意思的书,他有可能终身对文字类的书敬而远之了。尽管不用刻意去选择书,但第一本书还是要慎重。那些“僵尸畅销童书”害孩子,就是它们很有可能是孩子的第一本书,影响到孩子的终身阅读。

In this era of sound and light, children love words, and the first book is the most important. If the first book attracts him, he will read the second, and even if the second one does not like it, he will feel that the book that attracts him exists. If the first one is a meaningless book, it is possible for him to stay away from written books for life. Although you don't have to choose a book, you should always be careful with the first one. The harm to children of "zombie bestseller" books is that they are likely to be their first book, affecting their lifetime of reading.

这么多年,孩子的口味其实没有什么变化。我写作四十多年,销量都是逐年递增,说明孩子的阅读口味其实是差不多的。一旦他们喜欢,会一代代看下去,最早的读者是70后,现在都已经是第五代了。

After all these years, children's tastes have not changed much. I have been writing for more than 40 years, and the sales volume has been increasing year by year, which shows that children's reading tastes are almost the same. Once they like it, they will see it from generation to generation. The first readers are after 70, and now they are all the fifth generation.

南方周末:对你来说,除了进校园卖书,还有其他什么不可触碰的底线?

Southern Weekend: What's the bottom line for you other than selling books on campus?

郑渊洁:知识产权。商标和商号对我的侵权很严重,严重到被恶意抢注了一千多个,每一个维/权成功至少需要三年。没有一个作家像我一样,面临如此大规模的图书盗版,尤其是商标和商号。南京有家医药公司叫“南京市舒克贝塔宠物用品有限公司”,用于生产鼠粮,我已经维/权一年了还没解决。其实像这样的商家完全可以来找我合作,管我要授权。

Zheng Yuanjie: Intellectual property. Trademark and trade name infringement on me is very serious. It is so serious that more than 1000 trademarks and trade names have been registered maliciously. It will take at least three years for each trademark and trade name to succeed in safeguarding their rights. No writer, like me, faces such a large-scale piracy of books, especially trademarks and trade names. There is a pharmaceutical company in Nanjing called "Nanjing Shukebeita Pet Products Co., Ltd." which is used to produce rat food. I have been defending my rights for one year and haven't solved it yet. In fact, businesses like this can come to me to cooperate, even though I need authorization.

2018年7月11日,国家商标评审委员会宣告“卤西西”商标无效。理由是“卤西西”商标的主要认读部分文字“卤西西”与我创作的童话作品中的主人公名称“鲁西西”呼叫相同、含义无明显区分,将其作为商标申请注册违背了诚实信用的社会主义公共道德准则,损害了我的合法权益,破坏了社会公序良俗,易使消费者对“卤西西”商标使用的商品的出处产生误认并产生不良的社会影响。

On July 11, 2018, the national trademark review and Adjudication Board declared the "halogen West" trademark invalid. The reason is that the main reading part of the trademark of "brine West" is the same as the calling of the protagonist name "Luxixi" in my fairy tale works, and there is no obvious difference in meaning. The application for registration as a trademark violates the socialist public moral standards of honesty and credibility, damages my legitimate rights and interests, destroys the public order and good customs, and easily causes consumers to "brine West" The origin of the goods used in the trademark "Luxixi" has been misidentified and has a bad social impact.

我已经将商标法全文背下来了,在法庭上几乎已经没有律师能把我驳倒了。我也要出一本书叫做《郑渊洁法庭陈述词》,记录我参加各个案子的法庭陈述词,这些陈述词以说故事的形式出现,也很有文学性。在我出庭的时候,很多律师照着稿子念,非常枯燥,和电视剧中完全不同。我也想通过这些案子,把法庭的状况改变一下,让法官坐在那里也觉得有意思一些。我朋友圈最多的两类人,一类是律师法官,另一类是外交官。接触了法官之后,我自身有一些变化。法官经常会说“证据呢”,我也养成这个习惯,家里人说进了蚊子,我就会说证据呢?你看我4月抨击校园卖书的那篇文章,从头到尾全是证据,证据链很完整。接触了外交官之后,学会了合适的地点、合适的时间说合适的话,说完就走,不拖延时间。

I have memorized the whole of the trademark law, and almost no lawyer can argue me down in court.I also want to publish a book called "Zheng yuanjie court statement", which records the court statements I participated in each case. These statements appear in the form of telling stories, which are also very literary. When I was in court, many lawyers read according to the script, which was very boring, totally different from the TV series. I also want to change the situation of the court through these cases and make it more interesting for the judges to sit there. There are two categories of people in my circle of friends, one is lawyers and judges, the other is diplomats. The judge often will say " where is the evidence?", I also form this habit, the family said into the mosquito, I will say "where is the evidence?" Look at the article I wrote in April about selling books on campus. It was full of evidence from beginning to end. The chain of evidence was complete.After contacting the diplomats, I learned to say the right words in the right place and at the right time, and then leave without delay.

“只有我这样的人改变,才是最有说服力的”

"It's only people like me who change, it's the most convincing."

南方周末:你一直被视为教育中的朋克,在自己的孩子身上做教育实验,你对现阶段应试教育仍然持批判态度吗?

Southern Weekend: You have always been regarded as a punk in education, doing educational experiments on your own children. Are you still critical of exam-oriented education at this stage?

郑渊洁:如今我有点改变了,这个改变倒不是说应试教育本身做了变革,实际上它比我的孩子小时候变得更加严重了。倒退的原因不一定是教育主管部门,而是这一代家长真的不如以前的家长,他们造成了教育改革的停滞不前。

Zheng Yuanjie: Now I have changed a little. This change doesn't mean that exam oriented education itself has changed. In fact, it has become more serious than when my child was a child. The reason for the retrogression is not necessarily the education authorities, but that this generation of parents is really not as good as the previous parents, who have caused the stagnation of education reform.

但是,我也是有改变的,改变是从哪里来的呢?从郑亚旗那里得来的。我平时会接触到他公司的员工,发现有些员工很出色,有的就不太行,我就在想怎么才能选到最出色的人才,后来我问了很多人,他们小时候都看过我的书,包括滴滴的总裁柳青、华为的一位副总等,得到一个结论,最省事的方法把不行的人挡在门外,那就是看学历。你可能听了我说这句话肯定会想,郑渊洁现在怎么变成这样了?这样做其实真的有效果。特别是211和985,我还出了洋相,背成过185和250,为了记住这个数字,我还把家里的密码锁改成了这个数字。这样的人为什么进了公司能行呢?他们在16岁到18岁这个年龄段奋斗和努力,这样对于他的人生是有好处的。他拿到了一个不错的学历的话,需要牺牲玩的时间,还要找到学习的方法。如果考高分的方法找不到的话,很可能他别的事情也找不到方法。

But I also have changes. Where did the changes come from? From Zheng Yaqi. I usually get in touch with the employees of his company and find that some of them are excellent, some of them are not very good. I am thinking how to select the best talents. Later I asked a lot of people. When they were young, they read my books, including Liu Qing, Didi's president, a vice president of Huawei, and so on. They came to the conclusion that the most convenient way to keep the bad people out is to watch and learn Calendar. You may have listened to me and thought, how did Zheng Yuanjie become like this now? It really works. Especially for 211 and 985, I also made a fool of myself, reciting 185 and 250. In order to remember this number, I also changed the password lock at home to this number. Why are such people better when they enter the company? They struggle and work hard at the age of 16 to 18, which is good for his life. If he gets a good degree, he needs to sacrifice playing time and find a way to learn. If he can't find a way to get a high score, he probably can't find another way.

南方周末:能否这么理解,你对基础教育仍然批判,但对高等教育开始支持了?

Southern Weekend: Can we understand that you're still critical of basic education, but you're starting to support higher education?

郑渊洁:不是支持,而是16到18岁的时候,他应该知道奋斗了。所以从这件事情上,我的想法有改变。只有我这样的人改变,才是最有说服力的。所以我觉得孩子们16岁的时候还是要努力一下,拿到一个好的学历,这样给你求职带来帮助,尤其是家里没有背景的孩子,一定要努力。我原来写作品的意思是,对学习不好的人,也要给他们鼓励和尊重。实际上,我现在遇到的小时候看我书的人,绝大多数长大了也都是学霸型的。

Zheng Yuanjie: I'm not supporting, but when they are 16 to 18 years old, they should know how to struggle. So from this matter, my idea has changed. Only people like me can change, which is the most persuasive. So I think when children are 16 years old, they should try hard to get a good degree, which will help you to find a job. Especially for children who have no background at home, they must work hard. My original intention of writing is to encourage and respect those who are not good at learning. In fact, most of the people I met who read my books when I was a child are also bullies when I grow up.

南方周末:因为你过去对应试教育的态度,很多人批评你反智主义,你怎么看?

Southern Weekend: Because of your attitude towards exam-oriented education in the past, many people criticized your anti-intellectualism. What do you think about it?

郑渊洁:我从来没有说过知识没用。虽然我只上了四年小学,但是我阅读了大量图书,郑亚旗的问题不是应试教育问题,是碰到了不合格的老师,老师比学校更重要,实际上他后来也读了大量的书。他去做导演,读了很多相关的书,也跟过导演和当过制片人。随着年龄的增长,我接触到很多人和事情,看法也会有所变化。

Zheng Yuanjie: I never said that knowledge is useless. Although I only went to primary school for four years, I read a lot of books. Zheng Yaqi's problem is not about exam oriented education, but about unqualified teachers. Teachers are more important than schools. In fact, he also read a lot of books later. He went to work as a director, read a lot of related books, and also worked as a director and producer. As I grow older, I come into contact with many people and things, and my views will change.

“原来地大物博造就了俺”

"I was created by the vastness of the land"

南方周末:从经典文学的角度看,儿童文学如何更加完善?

Southern Weekend: From the perspective of classical literature, how do you think children's literature can be improved?

郑渊洁:儿童文学其实不用向成/人文学看齐。如果向成人/文学看齐的话,那就没有儿童文学这个概念了。这个问题其实潜意识里说明,你是默认成/人文学更加高级一些,其实不是。我跟儿童文学作家几乎没有交往,反而和成/人文学作家有交往。一些成/人文学作家可能以前会这么认为,但现在我接触到的一些人不这么认为了。比如苏童和麦家,他们都是很真诚的人,不会说违心的话。

Zheng Yuanjie: In fact, children's literature does not need to be in line with adul/t literature. If we look at adul/t literature, there will be no concept of children's literature. In fact, subconsciously, this question indicates that adul/t literature is more advanced by default, but it is not. I have little contact with children's writers, but with adul/t writers. Some adul/t writers might have thought that before, but now some of the people I've come across don't. For example, Su Tong and Mai Jia are very sincere people who will not say anything against their will.

南方周末:儿童文学作家如何判断和权衡自己在作品中传递的价值观?

Southern Weekend: How do writers of children's literature judge and weigh the values they convey in their work?

郑渊洁:我觉得根本的价值观还是平等、同情心、正义感、尊重他人、不是自己的财产不要拿等。我的家庭很平等,父母从来没有打骂过我,这个很少见。他们的成分其实不太好,我的姥爷是中医,“文革”时候被斗死,爷爷是富农,父母在单位里抬不起头,他们从小用身教告诉我,所有人生来是平等的,都应该互相尊重,不贴标签和歧视别人,这种教育很奇特。 前几天我在微博看了一篇分析我的文章,郑渊洁没有接受国外教育的经历,怎么能写出这样的作品和价值观来呢?后来他得出一个结论:中国地大物博。我还回应了他的微博,原来地大物博造就了俺。

Zheng Yuanjie: I think the fundamental values are equality, compassion, justice, respect for others, don't take property that is not your own, etc.My family is very equal, they never beat me, which is very rare. In fact, their identity is not very good. My grandfather is a traditional Chinese medicine. He was killed during the cultural revolution. My grandfather is a rich farmer. My parents can't raise their heads in the unit. They taught me from childhood that all people are born equal and should respect each other, not label and discriminate against others. This kind of education is very strange. I read an analysis article on Weibo a few days ago. Zheng Yuanjie has no experience of receiving foreign education. How can he write such works and values? Later he came to a conclusion: China is rich in land and resources. I also responded to his micro blog. It's the vast land and abundant resources that made me.

当我意识到作品的发行量大了以后,给孩子传递的价值观应该是正确的,其次也是搂草打兔子,告诉他们一些别的事情,比如注意安全、吃东西等,这些都是我的亲身经历。这也是儿童作家的责任,你知道了一些正确的科学的常识之后,应该融入到故事当中去。我的所有东西都是亲身经验,先拿自己做过实验之后,证明这是正确的,再去告诉外界。

When I realized that the distribution volume of the works was large, the values that I conveyed to the children should be correct. Secondly, I also hugged the grass and beat the rabbit, and told them some other things, such as paying attention to safety, eating, etc., which were my own experiences. This is also the responsibility of children's writers. After you know some correct scientific knowledge, you should integrate it into the story. All of my things are personal experience. After doing experiments on my own, I will prove that this is correct, and then I will tell the outside world.

南方周末:你的一些作品甚至跨越了几十年,其中的内容是否会根据时代特征进行调整?

Southern Weekend: Some of your work spans decades. Does the content adapt to the characteristics of different eras?

郑渊洁:三四十年前写的东西现在销量仍然很大,出版社有时候会和我争论,比如把BB机改为手机之类,我说不用,照这样说的话,《红楼梦》改变太多了,马车都要改为奔驰。实际上这是不需要的,让孩子知道这些变化,知道那个年代通讯的真实情况。重印的时候,他们让我看之前的东西,我经常说,啊,这真的是我写的吗?有时候会这样感慨两句,真正的好东西还是年轻的时候写的。年轻的时候会觉得这个世界很新鲜,对很多东西都好奇。同样一件事在我20岁的时候能够触发我写成一部作品,但今天我看到不一定能给我带来灵感了。

Zheng Yuanjie: Things written 30 or 40 years ago still sell a lot. Sometimes the publishing house will argue with me, such as changing BB machine to mobile phone. I don't need to say that. According to this, dream of the red chamber has changed so much that the carriage has to be changed to Benz. In fact, it is not necessary to let children know these changes and the real situation of communication in that era. When reprinting, they let me see the previous things. I often say, ah, is this really what I wrote? Sometimes I would like to sigh that the real good things were written when I was young. When you are young, you will feel the world is fresh and curious about many things. The same thing triggered me to write a work when I was 20, but today I see it doesn't necessarily inspire me.

南方周末:现在很多学者也会去研究你的童话,并且把你的创作分了阶段和类型,上升到学术理论层面,比如“热闹派”和现实主义等,你怎么看待这件事?

Southern Weekend: Now many scholars will also study your fairy tales, and divide your creation into stages and types, rising to the level of academic theory, such as "lively school" and realism, etc., what do you think of this matter?

郑渊洁:所有人都要吃饭,都要找个事情来做。

Zheng Yuanjie: Everyone has to eat and find something to do.

“万一通过我的有限影响力改变了呢”

"What if it changes through my limited influence?"

南方周末:童话作家身份之外,你最近几年越来越多参与到公共事件的讨论当中,为什么会有这些转变?

Southern Weekend: In addition to being a fairy-tale writer, you have become more involved in the discussion of public issues in recent years. Why these changes?

郑渊洁:我觉得一些人有了名之后,很多事情让别人去做了,比如车检、以前去银行交水电费之类。这些我都要自己去做,我觉得这就是生活。我去验车的时候,才发现机动车被验车场这样“宰”,我就会在作品中呼吁这些事情,最后也促成了新的车检条例。

Zheng Yuanjie: I think after some people become famous, many things have been done by others, such as vehicle inspection, paying water and electricity fees in the bank before and so on. I have to do all these myself. I think this is life. When I went to inspect the car, I found that the vehicle was "slaughtered" like this in the inspection yard. I would call for these things in my works, and finally led to the new inspection regulations.

比如商标法规定注册成功五年以上的商标不能再维/权,但郑州一个侵权商标注册14年了,我却维/权成功了。所有的法律制定都会有前瞻性的“兜底条款”,把所有的可能都装进去的“口袋条款”,所以我就研究商标法,发现了第十条第一款第八项就是“口袋条款”,这一条就是“违背了社会主义道德风尚,违反了公序良俗”,不受五年不能维/权的限制。维/权的时候我就提出这个条款,而商标法实行以来从来没有人用过,最后史无前例地动用了这个条款。从今以后,对于过了五年的侵权商标也可以动用这个条例了。

For example, according to the trademark law, if a trademark has been registered successfully for more than five years, it can no longer be protected. However, if an infringing trademark has been registered in Zhengzhou for 14 years, I have successfully protected my rights. All the law making will have forward-looking "pocket clauses" that put all possibilities into the pocket clauses. So I studied the trademark law and found that the eighth item in the first paragraph of Article 10 is the pocket clause, which is "against the socialist morality and customs, against the public order and good customs", and is not limited by the five-year inability to safeguard rights. I put forward this clause when safeguarding rights, but no one has ever used it since the trademark law came into effect, and finally it was used unprecedented. In the future, this regulation can also be used for infringing trademarks after five years.

整个过程我做了很多,调查了商标局审核商标的人员,是外包还是公务员,到底每年商标注册费拿了多少,有没有返点,这里面有多少泡沫,多少是恶意抢注……现在已经改变很多了。这些公共事件一方面给我写作灵感,另一方面,万一通过我的有限影响力改变了呢?这不就让很多人因此而受益吗?

I have done a lot in the whole process. I have investigated whether the trademark office is a person who checks the trademark, whether it is an outsourced or a civil servant, how much is the registration fee per year, how many bubbles are there, how much is the malicious rush? It has changed a lot now. On the one hand, these public events inspired me to write, on the other hand, what if I changed through my limited influence? Doesn't that benefit a lot of people?

我不会因为新闻事件发声。只有亲身经历的事情才是准确的,没有亲身经历的事情我不会说。假的新闻报道实在是太多了,我不吃二手的东西。我演讲的每一个案例都是我亲身的经历。

I don't speak about news events. Only the things that I have experienced are accurate. I will not say the things that I have not experienced. There are too many fake news reports. I don't eat second-hand food. Every case I give is my own experience.

南方周末:距离你退出中国作协已经差不多十年时间,这十年你的生活有什么变化吗?

Southern Weekend: It has been almost ten years since you left the Chinese writers association. Has your life changed in the past ten years?

郑渊洁:没有变化。原来我在里面的时候,他们也从来不理我,开任何会都不找我,就跟没我一样。所以我退不退,在里面还是在外面,其实生活是没有改变的。

Zheng Yuanjie: No change.When I was in there, they would never talk to me. They would never ask for me in any meeting, just like without me.So I can not retreat, in or out, in fact, life is not changed.

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